Q&A: Turning Crisis Into an Opportunity for Change

To gain insights into how the current financial crisis creates an opportunity for positive change in women’s advancement, Ernst & Young’s Beth Brooke spoke with Laura Liswood, Senior Advisor at Goldman Sachs and the co-founder and Secretary General of the Council of Women World Leaders, an organization of current and former women presidents, prime ministers and heads of government.

Beth Brooke: You’ve been quoted as saying there’s really no glass ceiling blocking women’s career prospects, just a “a thick layer of men.” What does that mean?

Laura Liswood: That’s meant to be tongue in cheek. The layer is not impermeable, and most of the things pressing down on women and other outof-power groups are unconscious — I call them “what grandma taught us.” They’re social constructs and archetypes and perceptions people have, all the things that create who we are and what we think. We get this from peers, school, the news media, even myths and legends of the world.

Beth Brooke: So the bias against women is largely unconscious?

Laura Liswood: I rarely use the word “bias.” I usually talk about unconscious schemas or archetypes. If you want people to change, you’ll find they’re more open to hearing about schemas than about “bias,” which is a loaded word. Of course, there is some conscious bias as well — for example, laws that constrain women from getting to positions of power.

Beth Brooke: Is it possible to identify the main obstacles — conscious or not — holding women back?

Laura Liswood: It’s hard to pinpoint the biggest constraints. Looking at the World Economic Forum’s gender gap report, we actually see certain gaps between men and women narrowing within particular countries, but without seeing some of the benefits you’d expect. For example, gaps in education and access to healthcare are closing, but gaps in political or economic power are not. We thought that if we educated girls and women and gave them access to healthcare, the rest would follow. But it hasn’t worked out that way. That tells us there is some other link missing. It could be cultural, something having to do with gender stereotyping or access to mentors. We’re just not sure.

Beth Brooke: You’ve said the gender gapis both an equity issue and an efficiency issue. How so?

Laura Liswood: It’s an efficiency issue because countries that fail to optimizetheir human resources don’t get a good return on their investment in human capital. For example, the overall educational level of women is rising, but you’re not seeing them go into positions where they can use their knowledge, so there’s no return on that huge investment. Similarly, corporations have diversity programs and spend time and money on women — and then they lose them or don’t optimize their assets.

Beth Brooke: How might the current financial/economic crisis present opportunities to look at women as a resource that can move businesses ahead and spur economic growth?

Laura Liswood: Iris Bohnet, a professor of public policy at Harvard University’sKennedy School of Government, hypothesizes that failure in gender equity is like a failure of the markets. There’s a lack of transparency; there’s poor risk modeling (a less diverse group of people can lead to excessive risk taking); and there’s irrational behavior resulting in poor return on investments. There may be incentives that reward the wrong behaviors, such as the pursuit of short-term results at the expense of long-term goals. Finally, there’s a lack of leadership to monitor the overall system. One could argue that the current crisis does create the opportunity for change. My belief (and I’m quoting Thucydides here) is that people change for three reasons: fear, self-interest or honor. We’re in a moment of fear. That presents a definite opening for the possibility of change.

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